Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 22, 2012, 01:52:38 AM
Go To Buy-High-Sell-Higher.com Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News: Most recent blog posts from JDH:
+  Buy High Sell Higher Forum
|-+  General Category
| |-+  General Discussion
| | |-+  Precious Metals
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 83 Print
Author Topic: Precious Metals  (Read 51794 times)
onlooker
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 636


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2009, 06:32:33 PM »

jjj000:

Damm!  Damm!  I still have not progress enough to understand much about technical charting for better short term gains.

So, thanks for looking at the PM from a technical point of view.
Logged
Bottomfeeder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1104



View Profile
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2009, 09:09:20 PM »

Call me when gold tops $1030, then I will look at it.  3j you are not alone, looks toppy to me, and a possible dzz play, but no need to get in front of that bus.  Long USD would be an alternative, sitting just above long term support.  Or just SOH.

I really think that there are alot of conflicting arguments on this board regarding gold.  Doom and gloom, is a deflationary environment, which is bearish for gold, meaning consumers and investors will hoard dollars.  See- 2008 crash for reference, the USD was the safety trade, it was not a trade of the world loving dollars, it merely attracted capital like a magnet would, to get away from everything else.  Gold reacted negatively out of fears of deflation, as did all other hard assets at that time, and appropriately so in retrospect.

So the fear of systemic risk and a rotten economy should attract investment towards USD.  What we have going on now is a "lack of fear" attracting dollars towards hard assets, which is bullish for the entire market, including PM's.

So if you think the economy is in the tank, and it is all BS accounting, one should probably not be putting money into hard assets, because printed dollars that don't get put into circulation (to chase goods and services), is not inflationary IMO.

I have personally been bullish for quite a while, and remain so as stocks going forward are about to be competing against quarterlys when the consumer was in the fetal position.  This will appear to be "top line growth", meaning increased consumer spending, meaning more dollars chasing fewer goods and services.  THAT IS what the gold play is all about IMO AND THE reason for this move.

I am just putting this out there, because I think that investors/speculators should look at price movements, but not assume, it is moving because of what they were taught to believe.  You gotta be kind of open minded about WHY it is moving and resolve  the conflicts in your own investment thesis.

For it to go up, and to be wrong as to why is not a good thing, as you will miss many other investment opportunities because your thesis was wrong. 

Gold is going up because the global economy is recovering, not because it is tanking.

Just my 2 cents, sorry for the thread drift there. Smiley



Logged
jjj000
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1290



View Profile
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »

jjj000:

Damm!  Damm!  I still have not progress enough to understand much about technical charting for better short term gains.

So, thanks for looking at the PM from a technical point of view.




Well onlooker... that's the thing about technical analysis... TA is only right until it is wrong  Grin

Meaning that just because it looks toppy does not mean that it will respect the TA and go down.  It just means that there is a "greater than normal probability that it may correct soon"... so now would be a time for caution, rather than going all in... at least from my view.  And a target...?  A rough guess maybe $960. 

So even in that case... a dip here would only take it down... what $40??  At $1000 that's only 4%.  Of course more if you are playing in the leveraged ETFs or futures...

That all being said, it is clearly in an uptrend since Nov' '08, so almost a year going now.  And as BF just said... the real time to take notice is if it rises higher than the Feb '09 high and then the March '08 high.  If it breaches those highs it may very well jump pretty good.  If the TA toppiness is blown through and beyond, you can believe I will switch my assessment real fast  Smiley

Also bear in mind with gold, a lot of the gains would likely occur pre-market during overseas action.  This would mean that you would have to be very calculated in your purchase timing...

But unlike BF... I gave up trying to figure out why or anything like that, in regards to these moves.  Half of the time I'm right, half of the time I'm wrong.  So what's the point?  That's why all I do now is stare at the charts.  The only why's I try to understand are computer trading patterns and human psychology...

I'll let you know how that works out Tongue
Logged
Bottomfeeder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1104



View Profile
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2009, 10:44:24 PM »

3j....you and I are not that different I dont think in how we look at the technicals.  I just try and look at the fundamentals to try and anticipate the capital flows, so I can catch the move on the chart earlier in the move.  It helps me know what to go and look for.

The technicals just act to confirm or oppose the thesis, which when wrong, requires me to re-examine what is going on.  I think it is the ONLY way that you can get in early enough to allow yourself to have winners, to be able to let them run, if that makes any sense.

Its pretty damn difficult to enter late, and be able to allow it to run and still have sizeable gains I think.  Although you guys sure seem to be doing well with the paper trades on futures which is cool.

I will be curious to see how you guys do, when you start exposing your dollars to the trade, without a fundamental backdrop.  Pure calculated gambling for sure, but you guys are pretty smart and I think will do well if your able to manage the emotional aspect of it.  Me, I don't think I could do it, because fundamentals play a big part in my ability to emotionally cope, and without that, I just don't think I could have enough conviction to do it.  Its just my temprament I think.

Sheesh.....thread drift again, sorry...... Smiley
Logged
punter
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 424


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2009, 12:57:53 AM »

Is Gibsons Paradox breaking the back of Government manipulation? Finally?

Gibson'sParadox

 

 


Gibson's Paradox Revisited: Professor Summers Analyzes Gold Prices


(RHH Commentary, August 13, 2001)


 

Due in no small measure to articles he wrote as a young economist, especially his 1966 essay "Gold and Economic Freedom" (reprinted in A. Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, available online at www.gold-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html), Fed chairman Alan Greenspan is widely recognized as quite an authority on gold. Far less widely known are professional articles on gold by another young economist who also went on to serve until quite recently in some of the nation's top economic policy positions.

Not long before joining the new Clinton administration as undersecretary of the treasury for international affairs, Harvard president and former treasury secretary Lawrence H. Summers, then Nathaniel Ropes professor of political economy at Harvard, co-authored with Robert B. Barsky an article entitled "Gibson's Paradox and the Gold Standard" published in the Journal of Political Economy (vol. 96, June 1988, pp. 528-550), available online at www.gata.org/gibson.pdf. The article, which appears to draw heavily on a 1985 working paper of the same title by the same authors, is an excellent technical piece, revealing a high level of expertise regarding gold, gold mining, and the interconnections among gold prices, interest rates, and inflation.

Indeed, for any administration concerned that the bond vigilantes on Wall Street might thwart its economic policies by pushing up long-term rates at inopportune times, the article is must reading and qualifies its authors as attractive candidates for government service. Of even more interest looking at the Clinton administration retrospectively, the article provides strong theoretical evidence that since 1995 gold prices have not acted as would normally be expected in a genuine free market, but instead have behaved as if subject to what the authors describe as "government pegging operations."

Lord Keynes gave the name "Gibson's paradox" to the correlation between interest rates and the general price level observed during the period of the classical gold standard. It was, he said, "one of the most completely established empirical facts in the whole field of quantitative economics." J.M. Keynes, A Treatise on Money (Macmillan, 1930), vol. 2, p.198. And it was a paradox because contemporary monetary theory, largely associated with Irving Fisher, suggested that interest rates should move with the rate of change in prices, i.e., the inflation rate or expected inflation rate, rather than the price level itself. Yet when Keynes wrote, data for the prior two centuries showed that the yield on British consols (government securities issued at a fixed rate of interest but with no redemption date) had moved in close correlation with wholesale prices but almost no correlation to the inflation rate.

Economists have long tried to find a theoretical explanation for Gibson's paradox. Professors Summers and Barsky provide the following executive summary of their contribution to this debate (at 528):

A shock that raises the underlying real rate of return in the economy reduces the equilibrium relative price of gold and, with the nominal price of gold pegged by the authorities, must raise the price level. The mechanism involves the allocation of gold between monetary and nonmonetary uses. Our explanation helps to resolve some important anomalies in previous work and is supported by empirical evidence along a number of dimensions.

They begin their article with an examination (at 530-539) of the data supporting the existence of Gibson's paradox, concluding that it was "primarily a gold standard phenomenon" (at 530) that applies to real rates of return. Regression analysis of the classical gold standard period, 1821-1913, shows a close correlation between long-term interest rates and the general price level. The correlation is not as strong for the pre-Napoleonic era, 1730-1796, when Britain effectively adhered to the gold standard but many other nations did not, and "completely breaks down during the Napoleonic war period of 1797-1820, when the gold standard was abandoned" (at 534).

Nor is the evidence of Gibson's paradox as strong for the period of the interwar gold exchange standard, 1921-1938, which was marked by active central bank management and restrictions on gold convertibility. Following World War II, the correlation weakened substantially under the Bretton Woods system, and "[t]he complete disappearance of Gibson's paradox by the early 1970s coincides with the final break with gold at that time" (at 535).

With the nominal price of gold fixed, Barsky and Summers note (at 529) that "the general price level is the reciprocal of the price of gold in terms of goods. Determination of the general price level then amounts to the microeconomic problem of determining the relative price of gold." For this, they develop a simple model (at 539-543) that assumes full convertibility between gold and dollars at a fixed parity, fully flexible prices for goods and services, and fixed exchange rates.

Next, they examine the response of the model to changes in the available real rate of return. In this connection, they observe (at 539): "Gold is a highly durable asset, and thus ... it is the demand for the existing stock, as opposed to the new flow, that must be modeled. The willingness to hold the stock of gold depends on the rate of return available on alternative assets." With respect to the gold stock, the model distinguishes between bank reserves (monetary gold under the gold standard) and nonmonetary gold, principally jewelry.

Summarizing the mathematical formulas of the model, Barsky and Summers make two key points. The first (at 540):

The price level may rise or fall over time depending on how the stock of gold, the dividend function [formulaic abbreviation omitted] and the demand for money [formulaic abbreviation omitted] evolve over time. Secular increases in the demand for monetary and nonmonetary gold caused by rising income levels tend to create an upward drift in the real price of gold, that is secular deflation. Tending to offset this effect would be gold discoveries and technological innovations in mining such as the cyanide process.

And the second (at 542):

The economic mechanism is clear. Increases in real interest rates raise the carrying cost of nonmonetary gold, reducing the demand for it. They also reduce the demand for monetary gold as long as money demand is interest elastic. The resulting reduction in the real price of gold is equivalent to an increase in the general price level.

Because the model is "essentially a theory of the relative price of gold," Barsky and Summers postulate (at 543) that "an important test of the model is to see how well it accounts for movements in the relative price of gold (and other metals) outside the context of the gold standard." They continue (id.):

The properties of the inverse relative prices of metals today ought to be similar to the properties of the general price level during the gold standard years. We focus on the period from 1973 to the present, after the gold market was sufficiently free from government pegging operations and from limitations on private trading for there to be a genuine "market" price of gold.

And they conclude (at 548):

The price level under the gold standard behaved in a fashion very similar to the way the reciprocal of the relative price of gold evolves today. Data from recent years indicate that changes in long-term real interest rates are indeed associated with movements in the relative price of gold in the opposite direction and that this effect is a dominant feature of gold price fluctuations.

In other words, the bottom line of their analysis is that gold prices in a free market should move inversely to real interest rates. Under the gold standard, higher prices meant that an ounce of gold purchased fewer goods, i.e., the relative price of gold fell. Since under the Gibson paradox long-term interest rates moved with the general price level, the relative price of gold moved inversely to long-term rates. Assuming, as Barsky and Summers assert, that the Gibson paradox operates in a truly free gold market as it did under the gold standard, gold prices will move inversely to real long-term rates, falling when rates rise and rising when they fall.

To test this proposition, particularly for the period after 1984 not covered by Barsky and Summers in their 1988 article, Nick Laird has constructed the following chart at my request. Nick is the proprietor of www.sharelynx.net, which offers an excellent collection of charts relating to gold and financial matters, and I am most grateful for his assistance. The chart plots average monthly gold prices on the inverted right scale, i.e., higher prices at the bottom. Real long-term rates are plotted on the left scale. They are defined as the 30-year U.S. Treasury bond yield minus the annualized increase in the Consumer Price Index (calculated as the sum of the monthly CPI increases for the preceding twelve months).




As the chart shows, Gibson's paradox continued to operate for another decade after the period covered by Barsky and Summers. But sometime around 1995, real long-term interest rates and inverted gold prices began a period of sharp and increasing divergence that has continued to the present time. During this period, as real rates have declined from the 4% level to near 2%, gold prices have fallen from $400/oz. to around $270 rather than rising toward the $500 level as Gibson's paradox and the model of it constructed by Barsky and Summers indicates they should have.

The historical evidence adduced by Barsky and Summers leaves but one explanation for this breakdown in the operation of Gibson's paradox: what they call "government pegging operations" working on the price of gold. What is more, this same evidence also demonstrates that absent this governmental interference in the free market for gold, falling real rates would have led to rising gold prices which, in today's world of unlimited fiat money, would have been taken as a warning of future inflation and likely triggered an early reversal of the decline in real long-term rates.

Other analysts have noted the inverse relationship between real rates and gold prices. An interesting and informative recent article along these lines is Adam Hamilton's Real Rates and Gold, which makes reference to a 1993 Federal Reserve study containing the following statement: "The Fed's attempts to stimulate the economy during the 1970s through what amounted to a policy of extremely low real interest rates led to steadily rising inflation that was finally checked at great cost during the 1980s."

The low real long-term interest rates of the past few years may have been engineered with far more sophistication than those of a generation ago, including the coordinated and heavy use of both gold and interest rate derivatives. By demonstrating that falling real long-term rates will lead to rising gold prices absent government interference in the gold market, Barsky and Summers underscore the futility of trying to control the former without also controlling the latter. But they do not provide a model for successful long-term suppression of gold prices in the face of continued low real rates.

What they do indicate (at 548), however, is that their model of Gibson's paradox accords only a "minimal role [to] new gold discoveries" and fails to account fully for shifts between monetary and nonmonetary gold. As they note (at 546-548), the fraction of the total gold stock held in nonmonetary form during the gold standard era was substantial, perhaps exceeding one-half, and the fraction varied over time. Also (at 548), "the post-1896 rise in prices, after more than two decades of deflation, is usually attributed to gold discoveries in combination with the development of the cyanide process for extraction."

Accordingly, they conclude (at 548-549) that their "proposed resolution of the Gibson paradox cannot be the whole answer" and that determination of "the quantitative importance of the mechanism in this paper would require better methods for proxying movements in the stocks of monetary and nonmonetary gold, and this might be an appropriate topic for further research." The unusual and sharp divergence of real long-term interest rates from inverted gold prices that began in 1995 suggests that Mr. Summers found an opportunity to do some further applied research on these matters during his tenure at the Treasury.

Both the heavy use of forward selling by mining companies and the World Gold Council's obsession with promoting gold as jewelry to the near exclusion of its historic monetary role appear designed to exploit the conceded points of vulnerability in the operation of the model. Viewed in this light, these two novel and distinguishing features of the post-1995 gold market appear less accidental and more as the handmaidens of the government price-fixing operations that the model reveals.

At the time of his appointment, Professor Summers was the youngest tenured professor in Harvard's modern history. On Friday, October 12, 2001, in outdoor ceremonies in Tercentenary Theatre, he will be formally installed as its 27th president, entrusted with the job of leading the nation's oldest university -- where "Veritas" is the motto -- into the new millennium. Three days earlier, in Courtroom No. 11 of the new U.S. Courthouse on Boston Harbor, the search for the truth about his interim service in the highest positions at the U.S. Treasury will resume.

Judge Lindsay has scheduled a hearing on the defendants' motions to dismiss for Tuesday, October 9, at 3:30 p.m. The underlying issue in that proceeding is whether the Constitution and laws of the United States may be enforced in a federal court action challenging the authority of Mr. Summers and other American officials, working at least in part through the Bank for International Settlements, to conduct the surreptitious and illegal gold price-fixing operations exposed even by his own academic research.


Logged
sidewinder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1871



View Profile
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2009, 03:45:14 AM »

So are we to assume that Larry Summers is the fox in the hen house?
Logged

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
jjj000
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1290



View Profile
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2009, 04:42:06 AM »


Goddammit I read that whole article only to read that 3/4 of the way through the relationship no longer works and it's all assumed to be fixed anyway!??!  Argh.  Angry  heh
Logged
sunseeker
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1344


Stirred not Shaken


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2009, 04:52:55 AM »

Pinetree September 08, 2009, 06:04:56 PM »

Quote
I've been watching the rare earths for the past few days.  Looks like I missed some great entries about a week ago.  I guess there's not much I can do now but wait for the next pullback/sideways consolidation.  Feeling kind of lost looking at them though.  I've been so focused on intraday trading that I'm becoming clueless when it comes to how to play a longer term trend. 


Hi pinetree
Rare earths could very easily be the next resource boom. China is has a virtual monopoly on them. They are very important to the electronics industry.
Both sidewinder and I have brought the subject up:

http://buy-high-sell-higher.com/forum/general-discussion/how-did-america-get-in-this-economic-situation-and-how-do-we-get-out-t1034.0.html;msg11023#msg11023

A couple more links that I think that you will find very interesting:
http://www.kereport.com/weekendshow/weekendr-sep0509-seg5.html

http://www.miningcompanyreport.com/mercenary_musings/AVL.T%20evaluation%20080901.pdf

ATB  Cool
Logged

sunseeker
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1344


Stirred not Shaken


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2009, 06:34:32 PM »

Confusion will be This Market's Epitaph:

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/cook_b/cook_b091509.html

“Ducks-in-a-Row”

““Word on the street” is….the secret year end of the US Federal Reserve System is September 30, 2009. As of that date, all banks have to be Basel II & III compliant bringing all off balance sheet obligations back onto the books. The US Federal Reserve, their member banks and their manipulation counterparties (like AIG) are knee deep in Derivatives to the point of insanity.”

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1252994940.php

As onlooker recently posted "Hi Ho Silver and Gold."

ATB  Cool
Logged

sidewinder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1871



View Profile
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2009, 07:36:28 PM »

Confusion, NOooooo!  Just business as usual.

321 Gold article (think they sell gold)  quote a high Chinese official confirming the Yes, china is buying up the gold, But he says we must do it slowly so as not to upset the market.  WTF  Shhhh don't let this out but we are buying up gold. 

Then at the same time Bob Chapman puts out an article about the Chinese being short gold big time.  So much so that there is talk of them defaulting on the shorts. 

http://www.shtfplan.com/precious-metals/bob-chapman-china-to-default-on-goldsilver-comex-positions_09102009

Now I'm reading that Barrick has been clearing out their hedges so that has been driving up gold. 

All this tells me one thing.   Most of the word does not, at this point, know whether to shit or go blind.    LOL

Meanwhile The Chinese economy is reported to be growing without missing a beat.  REALLY!  We know that  governments, ALL government lie and massage numbers to suit their purpose.  Why should the the little Commies be any different?  In fact I would suggest that truth is not one of the things they are noted for. 

The FED keeps pumping up the market here at home and I will just ride it until the jig is up. (can I say that here?) ...  sooner or later somebody will blink and it hits the fan but it wont happen tomorrow and I will still say just like any other thing for sale price of gold will fluctuate as will the dollar.  All the fiats are in a race to the bottom and although it is the current leader the USD will not be the ultimate loser.  Time to pay attention.  As I have said before this is all happening in slow motion that causes much confusion and speculation.

 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 07:38:07 PM by sidewinder » Logged

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
jjj000
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1290



View Profile
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2009, 09:53:29 PM »

““Word on the street” is….the secret year end of the US Federal Reserve System is September 30, 2009. As of that date, all banks have to be Basel II & III compliant bringing all off balance sheet obligations back onto the books. The US Federal Reserve, their member banks and their manipulation counterparties (like AIG) are knee deep in Derivatives to the point of insanity.”


here is some more I found on google... um... ok:

"A private but extremely influential silent individual, Dr. Michael Van de Meer is the person predicting a financial collapse of the United States starting on September 30th. That is the end of the fiscal year and the final date for payments the Federal Reserve Board wants to act, but cannot, because it is in a catatonic state, as the leaders of every state in the world is.
There will also be indications on September the 16th, he informed me some ten months ago, “Although September 30th will be the tipping point at which the tree’s fate is determined, the branches will not hit the ground until October 7 and 27th and going on into November,” he says.
Dr. Van de Meer correctly predicted the financial panic that started in September of 2008 (also 10 months in advance) and has made many other accurate predictions."


There's no point in even linking this, as it was off some hack's website forum with promos for Glenn Beck and alien faces all over it.  So... let's see tomorrow... Sept 16.   Roll Eyes

A quick google/wikipedia search of one "Dr. Michael Van de Meer" brings up nothing other than a couple posts asking "does this guy even exist?"

Ok then.  We shall see tomorrow... whence the boogeyman comes.  Maybe he shares a cell with Martin Armstrong...  Tongue
Logged
sidewinder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1871



View Profile
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2009, 10:47:43 PM »

Ahhhh man, jjjooo, you been reading that Benjamin Fulford stuff again...   serious nut case
Logged

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
jjj000
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1290



View Profile
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2009, 02:20:45 AM »


I ain't been reading squat.  Gave that up years ago.

That was just the 5 minutes of whatever I could pull up off google after seeing sunseeker's links.  Just felt the need to check into it.

The market will tell me what it wants to do when it's ready... not through talking heads on the interwebs... but rather through "my squiggly lines", as the woman calls it...

Meanwhile TOS software is still jacked up.  Tonight's action is a techincal trader's dream... up and down rollercoaster rinse and repeat... except order entry is not working... just unacceptable.
Logged
sidewinder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1871



View Profile
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2009, 07:16:52 AM »

 Grin
Logged

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Bottomfeeder
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1104



View Profile
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2009, 10:59:09 AM »

Glad to hear that the TOS problem isn't just on my computer.....I thought there for a second that maybe they said no funding, no realtime charts.....you know, get you all hooked on the platform, and then pull it away and make you miss it.  Like a junkie Grin
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 83 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!